From NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com Sat May 1 13:27:04 2010 From: NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com (Keith Nagel) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 10:27:04 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] Aluminum polarization under corrosion by salt In-Reply-To: <829737.66515.qm@web65407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Nick, I am now beginning to see why you find this experiment so intriguing. Yesterday I cut the rest of that 200ft roll into one 5 inch piece with a 2 inch remainder cut at both ends. This small piece I suspended in the HCl/NaCl solution in hopes of burning the end off. I was concerned that wicking might be a problem. As it turned out, the solution wicked the full two inches up and is bubbling out the top. So burning the end off is a no go, but this does show that wicking brings a lot of fluid into the foil. What I'll do next is buy another 200ft roll, and use it whole in a large spaghetti holder mason jar. Now the roll will support clean and unobstructed wicking from the bottom, and outgassing from the top. The old 5" roll is still slowly rising in potential, up to about a volt now. BTW, some time ago Ed Storms suggested I try using platinum wire as a counter electrode. This was not very stable compared to the AgCl, but it did work, and has the great advantage of being usable in most any electrolyte without contamination. If you have any Pt wire hanging around you might make a probe of that and use it as your reference electrode. K. -----Original Message----- From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com [mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Nick Reiter Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:28 AM To: New energy for the new world. Subject: Re: [NewCandle] Aluminum polarization under corrosion by salt Hi Keith, Thank you for clearing that up. I apologize if I missed some of it in my earlier reply. Brain's been in the deep fryer lately. But a quick reply regarding the large foil rolls. The standard arrangement since pretty well day 1 with what Sam Faile and I had come to call the "bucket" consisted of three 200ft rolls, each one sawed in half on a bandsaw. Thus for a roughly 12 inch long roll, one cut in the middle gives you two ~6" rolls, each one having an open end and a "squished" end. In the polypropylene bucket we used, the rolls are bundled against each other, upright, with the free or open ends of each one facing up, the squished end at the bottom. Now as far as dressing or trying to re-open the sawed end to a free condition - basically no. I've always left that as is. When you immerse a roll like that in water, the water ingress is most rapidly down the turns from the inside, the outside, and the free end (when it goes under or is covered) I did determine that there IS a slow seeping in even from the most hard-pinched of sawed ends, but of course it is likely much less than from an open end or inner/outer turn. In such a geometry, you can gauge the rate of water ingress by watching the small outgassing bubble streams when you add the water (or immerse). Generally speaking, it seems like a 200ft long six inch wide "half roll" only takes about 15 to 20 minutes to become soaked and infiltrated all the way through. Thats what we gots... Again, thanks for all the info and work! n > I presented the difference voltage as positive. If we take > the accepted > polarity ( ground as reference electrode ) all the posted > values should > be negative. That is to say, the aluminum is negative with > respect > to the solution. > > As regards the potential/area relationship. The potential > increases > with temperature as well. I am tentatively attributing the > potential > increase due to area as being the result of more H adsorbed > onto the > aluminum. > I have a test in mind to illuminate this and other dark > questions > about the system, using a cell with a pair of al electrodes > and > a power supply. More on that next week sometime. > > Let's also not confuse the potential with the reaction > rate. I can't > get an ammeter into the cell to measure the corrosion > currents for > obvious reasons. I can look at corrosion of equal sized > foils over time, > and in fact the HCl/NaCl bath I mentioned earlier ate it's > foil > long before the pure NaCl bath. My comment from the last > post should > have been clearly qualified by the statement that the NaCl > bath was heated > and cooled, whereas the HCl/NaCl bath wasn't. When the > baths are > both cold, HCl wins out handily. > > Not sure if I mentioned this earlier, but I tried doubling > the > concentration of NaCl and saw a very small increase in > potential. > The increase seemed linear with doubling, at least in the > range of 1 to 4 tsp/200ml. But we're talking about ~.02 V > here. > > A question for you, Nick. Two days ago I started a 5 inch > chunk of > 200Ft roll. When I cut the big roll, I of course > ended up with a solid, stuck together end. This is impeding > the > solution from penetrating the roll. I am considering > burning off > the end with the HCl bath. What do you do to free up the > loose end? > > Sadly, I was unable to find any Red Devil > Lye at the stores here. Perhaps there is some reason for > this > on the West Coast?? Still looking and hoping. > > BTW, AgCl electrodes are pretty cheap. Omega sells gell > filled ones > for about 60 bucks. > > I'd be inclined to do your experiment if I could resolve > how to > handle the cut ends of the rolls. The acid will definitely > work, > but what do you do? > > K. _______________________________________________ NewCandle mailing list NewCandle at ipdiscover.com http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com From NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com Tue May 4 13:42:20 2010 From: NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com (Keith Nagel) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 10:42:20 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] The role of wicking in electrolyte transport through metal foil rolls Message-ID: Hi Nick, I was so intrigued by the degree of wicking in the small roll I mentioned last week that I set up this experiment. A 25 sqr ft roll of foil was placed in 1 inch of NaCl electrolyte after removing the first two inches of cardboard spool. After about two days, the cardboard at the top of the roll began to become wet from electrolyte sputtering out of the top of the roll. The whole thing is rather like the trunk of a tree. I will try this experiment again with a 200ft roll and make some measurements of the half-potential over time. As regards the old 200ft roll, the voltage is still varying, oscillating between about .97 and 1 volts. I don't have a data logger set up so I can't say what the waveshape/period is. The inner turns of the roll are deforming into the center as gas sparges out the top in spurts. I am thinking here that the ideal reactor would be one with a solid spindle to maintain foil leaf spacings and allow the roll to load evenly with gas. Very interesting, no? K. From avalonbiker at yahoo.com Tue May 4 13:48:22 2010 From: avalonbiker at yahoo.com (Nick Reiter) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 10:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [NewCandle] The role of wicking in electrolyte transport through metal foil rolls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19659.23366.qm@web65412.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi Keith! Now you're cooking:) Good call on the capillary creepage, and a right smart experiment. Old Orvin Wagner would be proud! This was the phase where I swore I would see curious fluctuations of the background count CPM of the Geiger counter pointing at the roll, but we'll leave that one for the later more esoteric chapters. It is an exceptionally cool effect - emulation of xylem transport. So the 200 ft roll is now making "bubble spurts" as I would call them. Indeed, that is also the phase where the rolls typically begin to swell and scrunch inward. I do like your idea of mounting the roll on a solid mandrel to maintain turn integrity. Might even improve the output I would guess. When you are into the bubble spurt phase, what happens next will depend on the thermodynamics and geometry of the system. If the insulated nature of your vessel allows it, you will probably get a temperature rise / rate rise hand in hand to some terminal point (or BP of the salt water - either way its dramatically powerful), then the evolution of gas will diminish, finally going inert after maybe a week. By that time, you will find the foil is now dark matte gray, oxidized all to heck, brittle, and perforated, at least on the outer and inner 10 to 20 turns. But getting the electrochemical data all along the way - thats the real treat in this for me! Good times! Thank you for updating! n > I was so intrigued by the degree of wicking in the small > roll > I mentioned last week that I set up this experiment. > > A 25 sqr ft roll of foil was placed in 1 inch of NaCl > electrolyte > after removing the first two inches of cardboard spool. > After about two days, the cardboard at the top of the roll > began to become wet from electrolyte sputtering out of > the top of the roll. The whole thing is rather like the > trunk of a tree. I will try this experiment again with a > 200ft roll and > make some measurements of the half-potential over time. > > As regards the old 200ft roll, the voltage is still > varying, > oscillating between about .97 and 1 volts. I don't have > a data logger set up so I can't say what the > waveshape/period is. > The inner turns of the roll are deforming into the center > as gas sparges out the top in spurts. I am thinking here > that > the ideal reactor would be one with a solid spindle to > maintain foil leaf spacings and allow the roll to load > evenly with gas. > > Very interesting, no? > > K. > > _______________________________________________ > NewCandle mailing list > NewCandle at ipdiscover.com > http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com > From NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com Wed May 5 13:14:50 2010 From: NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com (Keith Nagel) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 10:14:50 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] The role of wicking in electrolyte transportthrough metal foil rolls In-Reply-To: <19659.23366.qm@web65412.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey Nick, It struck me the other day that perhaps the reason you got null results with your teflon coated foil is that the electrolyte can't wick into a foil/teflon sandwich? I've yet to see a runaway reaction, but I would certainly expect it if conditions permit. It's still quite cold here during the evenings. I don't have vacuum flasks big enough for a full roll. Speaking of things I don't have; Red Devil Lye has been discontinued! Apparently a victim of the war on drugs. And it's a good thing because now there are no longer any meth labs! Yup, they're all gone now, and former addicts are eating ice cream instead! As wonderful and effective as that solution was, it still leaves us with the problem of getting some lye, short of mail order and big shipping $$$. We shall see. In the ideal reactor, all the leaves of foil should be corroded equally, or nearly so. Judging by my experiments so far, it seems possible. What I am wondering about now is how to characterize the spacing between the turns of foil. This was the principle attraction of the system to you; any ideas here? How thick is the fluid layer between turns? K. -----Original Message----- From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com [mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Nick Reiter Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 10:48 AM To: New energy for the new world. Subject: Re: [NewCandle] The role of wicking in electrolyte transportthrough metal foil rolls Hi Keith! Now you're cooking:) Good call on the capillary creepage, and a right smart experiment. Old Orvin Wagner would be proud! This was the phase where I swore I would see curious fluctuations of the background count CPM of the Geiger counter pointing at the roll, but we'll leave that one for the later more esoteric chapters. It is an exceptionally cool effect - emulation of xylem transport. So the 200 ft roll is now making "bubble spurts" as I would call them. Indeed, that is also the phase where the rolls typically begin to swell and scrunch inward. I do like your idea of mounting the roll on a solid mandrel to maintain turn integrity. Might even improve the output I would guess. When you are into the bubble spurt phase, what happens next will depend on the thermodynamics and geometry of the system. If the insulated nature of your vessel allows it, you will probably get a temperature rise / rate rise hand in hand to some terminal point (or BP of the salt water - either way its dramatically powerful), then the evolution of gas will diminish, finally going inert after maybe a week. By that time, you will find the foil is now dark matte gray, oxidized all to heck, brittle, and perforated, at least on the outer and inner 10 to 20 turns. But getting the electrochemical data all along the way - thats the real treat in this for me! Good times! Thank you for updating! n > I was so intrigued by the degree of wicking in the small > roll > I mentioned last week that I set up this experiment. > > A 25 sqr ft roll of foil was placed in 1 inch of NaCl > electrolyte > after removing the first two inches of cardboard spool. > After about two days, the cardboard at the top of the roll > began to become wet from electrolyte sputtering out of > the top of the roll. The whole thing is rather like the > trunk of a tree. I will try this experiment again with a > 200ft roll and > make some measurements of the half-potential over time. > > As regards the old 200ft roll, the voltage is still > varying, > oscillating between about .97 and 1 volts. I don't have > a data logger set up so I can't say what the > waveshape/period is. > The inner turns of the roll are deforming into the center > as gas sparges out the top in spurts. I am thinking here > that > the ideal reactor would be one with a solid spindle to > maintain foil leaf spacings and allow the roll to load > evenly with gas. > > Very interesting, no? > > K. > > _______________________________________________ > NewCandle mailing list > NewCandle at ipdiscover.com > http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com > _______________________________________________ NewCandle mailing list NewCandle at ipdiscover.com http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com From jonesb9 at pacbell.net Wed May 5 13:41:36 2010 From: jonesb9 at pacbell.net (Jones Beene) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 10:41:36 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] The role of wicking in electrolyte transportthrough metal foil rolls In-Reply-To: References: <19659.23366.qm@web65412.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <016701caec7a$35e64890$a1b2d9b0$@net> K - > Speaking of things I don't have; Red Devil Lye has been discontinued! Duda Diesel sells both NaOH and KOH in 2 lb bottles for biodiesel - and no problem shipping ground to any address (at least not last month). http://www.dudadiesel.com/ Jones From avalonbiker at yahoo.com Thu May 6 10:21:11 2010 From: avalonbiker at yahoo.com (Nick Reiter) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 07:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [NewCandle] The role of wicking in electrolyte transportthrough metal foil rolls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <542000.15130.qm@web65414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi Keith, Looks like Jones fixed you up with a source for NaOH and KOH... I'd send ya a can of Red Devil, but that would probably be pressing my luck with mail rules, and place me onto more radar scopes than I would care for. OK, the turn cavities... I mused on this a few months ago, but have not characterized it anywhere near to my satisfaction. We know that the rolling process leaves irregular linear straitions on the foil metal, that are an imprint of the texture of the stainless steel mill rolls. As can be seen in some of my old SEM shots, this leaves something like elongated grooves of irregular dimension and irregular spacing, that are perpendicular to the long axis of the roll, and parallel to the turns of the roll. This would imply that the most rapid capillary action is likely to be around the turns, and less rapid from bottom to top, in an arrangement such as what you had. In the case you established, where the bottom inch or so was covered with electrolyte, then one might picture a spiral rising slowly. Now as to the dimensions of the turn to turn cavities... thats where fun begins and chaos looms, and Nick has nary but a rough guess. Ideally, the cavities would be defined by the range of what topography on one turn is matched up to the topography on the next turn opposing... irregular valley to irregular peak (least cavity) irregular valley to irregular valley (greatest cavity). If the surface roughness is defined by Ra, then you'd have a range of anywhere between ~0 and 2Ra. Now the value for average roughness of kitchen foil - you would suspect that could be an easy to find value; some sort of industry standard. But if it is, its damned esoteric, because I've only found hints of it, with cited values between 100nm and 2 microns. N > It struck me the other day that perhaps the reason you got > null results > with your teflon coated foil is that the electrolyte can't > wick into a foil/teflon sandwich? > > I've yet to see a runaway reaction, but I would certainly > expect > it if conditions permit. It's still quite cold here during > the > evenings. I don't have vacuum flasks big enough for a full > roll. > > Speaking of things I don't have; Red Devil Lye has been > discontinued! > Apparently a victim of the war on drugs. And it's a good > thing because > now there are no longer any meth labs! Yup, they're all > gone now, > and former addicts are eating ice cream instead! > > As wonderful and effective as that solution was, it still > leaves > us with the problem of getting some lye, short of mail > order > and big shipping $$$. We shall see. > > In the ideal reactor, all the leaves of foil should be > corroded > equally, or nearly so. Judging by my experiments so far, > it > seems possible. What I am wondering about now is how to > characterize the spacing between the turns of foil. This > was the principle attraction of the system to you; any > ideas here? How thick is the fluid layer between turns? > > K. > From NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com Thu May 6 13:24:35 2010 From: NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com (Keith Nagel) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:24:35 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] The role of wicking in electrolyte transportthroughmetal foil rolls In-Reply-To: <542000.15130.qm@web65414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Jones! There's a lot of local biodiesel things here in Portland, but not sure if anyone is directly supporting researchers or manufacturers the way that linked company does. It's great that they have the K salt along with the Na, I often have a need for both. And all I need is a pound or so; I could probably get 50lb sacks here easier than the small quantities. I have another big roll and I will try to more accurately time the rate of wicking up the roll. I assume most of the flow is axial, but presumably a little is circumferential. I can drill holes every inch or so and measure the rate of flow pretty easily ( maybe make some pancake syrup while I'm at it? ). I think with this arrangement you could do the GM detector experiment with much greater precision. Put the tube right up against the roll, and watch as the wave slowly creeps across the active region. Really it's so easy you should try it; it may take me a little time to get a meter ( I'm looking into tying all my stuff together with a laptop and want to look at various options before I commit to a specific meter ). Once corrosion begins the free hydrogen will swell and deform the foils and make the spacing pretty variable. For all of our purposes it would probably be better for that not to happen. I am thinking that a plastic solid rod cut axially into halves, with a wedge at each end to push the halves apart might make it possible to support the foil roll under loading. K. -----Original Message----- From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com [mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Nick Reiter Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 7:21 AM To: New energy for the new world. Subject: Re: [NewCandle] The role of wicking in electrolyte transportthroughmetal foil rolls Hi Keith, Looks like Jones fixed you up with a source for NaOH and KOH... I'd send ya a can of Red Devil, but that would probably be pressing my luck with mail rules, and place me onto more radar scopes than I would care for. OK, the turn cavities... I mused on this a few months ago, but have not characterized it anywhere near to my satisfaction. We know that the rolling process leaves irregular linear straitions on the foil metal, that are an imprint of the texture of the stainless steel mill rolls. As can be seen in some of my old SEM shots, this leaves something like elongated grooves of irregular dimension and irregular spacing, that are perpendicular to the long axis of the roll, and parallel to the turns of the roll. This would imply that the most rapid capillary action is likely to be around the turns, and less rapid from bottom to top, in an arrangement such as what you had. In the case you established, where the bottom inch or so was covered with electrolyte, then one might picture a spiral rising slowly. Now as to the dimensions of the turn to turn cavities... thats where fun begins and chaos looms, and Nick has nary but a rough guess. Ideally, the cavities would be defined by the range of what topography on one turn is matched up to the topography on the next turn opposing... irregular valley to irregular peak (least cavity) irregular valley to irregular valley (greatest cavity). If the surface roughness is defined by Ra, then you'd have a range of anywhere between ~0 and 2Ra. Now the value for average roughness of kitchen foil - you would suspect that could be an easy to find value; some sort of industry standard. But if it is, its damned esoteric, because I've only found hints of it, with cited values between 100nm and 2 microns. N > It struck me the other day that perhaps the reason you got > null results > with your teflon coated foil is that the electrolyte can't > wick into a foil/teflon sandwich? > > I've yet to see a runaway reaction, but I would certainly > expect > it if conditions permit. It's still quite cold here during > the > evenings. I don't have vacuum flasks big enough for a full > roll. > > Speaking of things I don't have; Red Devil Lye has been > discontinued! > Apparently a victim of the war on drugs. And it's a good > thing because > now there are no longer any meth labs! Yup, they're all > gone now, > and former addicts are eating ice cream instead! > > As wonderful and effective as that solution was, it still > leaves > us with the problem of getting some lye, short of mail > order > and big shipping $$$. We shall see. > > In the ideal reactor, all the leaves of foil should be > corroded > equally, or nearly so. Judging by my experiments so far, > it > seems possible. What I am wondering about now is how to > characterize the spacing between the turns of foil. This > was the principle attraction of the system to you; any > ideas here? How thick is the fluid layer between turns? > > K. > _______________________________________________ NewCandle mailing list NewCandle at ipdiscover.com http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com From NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com Mon May 10 14:45:10 2010 From: NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com (Keith Nagel) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 11:45:10 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode Message-ID: I turned the house upside down shook, and out popped my platinum wire and the old electrode! It looked a little long in the tooth, so I rebuilt it and sealed it with hot glue. Testing produced the same results as it did the last time I messed with it; poor stability. This despite glowing reports like so. https://info.ngwa.org/GWOL/pdf/991165081.PDF My basic design is identical to this. http://geoweb1.tamu.edu/Faculty/Herbert/docs/05OwensPtElectrode.pdf and I assumed like the author that my problems had to do with leakage into the body of the probe and the bimetal junction. The hot glue does not seem to be providing a good seal after soaking. Any advice about sealing these elecrodes? At over 100USD per foot of wire, there's a big cost savings to be had using short segments of active material. I don't like the idea of using epoxy to begin with, or hot glue for that matter, due to contamination issues. K. From avalonbiker at yahoo.com Mon May 10 15:27:14 2010 From: avalonbiker at yahoo.com (Nick Reiter) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 12:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <386800.85110.qm@web65406.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi Keith, Well, fancy that... platinum wire you say:) How much ya need? One of the advantages of working with high temperature type R and S thermocouples over the years is that ya get a stash of Pt wire built up from dead units (well, and some of the Pt-10%Rh too) I could send you maybe a max length of about 12 to 18 inches as a contiguous piece. I keep it around otherwise for occasional crafting and for catalytic fun. n > From: Keith Nagel > Subject: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode > To: "New energy for the new world." > Date: Monday, May 10, 2010, 2:45 PM > I turned the house upside down shook, > and out popped my > platinum wire and the old electrode! It looked a little > long in the tooth, so I rebuilt it and sealed it > with hot glue. Testing produced the same results > as it did the last time I messed with it; poor stability. > This despite glowing reports like so. > > https://info.ngwa.org/GWOL/pdf/991165081.PDF > > My basic design is identical to this. > > http://geoweb1.tamu.edu/Faculty/Herbert/docs/05OwensPtElectrode.pdf > > and I assumed like the author that my problems > had to do with leakage into the body of the > probe and the bimetal junction. The hot glue > does not seem to be providing a good seal after > soaking. > > Any advice about sealing these elecrodes? At over > 100USD per foot of wire, there's a big cost > savings to be had using short segments of active > material. I don't like the idea of using epoxy > to begin with, or hot glue for that matter, due > to contamination issues. > > K. > > _______________________________________________ > NewCandle mailing list > NewCandle at ipdiscover.com > http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com > From NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com Mon May 10 16:19:50 2010 From: NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com (Keith Nagel) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:19:50 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode In-Reply-To: <386800.85110.qm@web65406.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks! But I've got enough for now, and I need to resolve the issue irrespective of what stock I have on hand. You should make a probe to use for your experiments. That said, if you have any scraps, I'd like to make some platinum blacking solution. I sent an email to one of the big epoxy vendors with tech support, we'll see what they say. K. -----Original Message----- From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com [mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Nick Reiter Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 12:27 PM To: New energy for the new world. Subject: Re: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode Hi Keith, Well, fancy that... platinum wire you say:) How much ya need? One of the advantages of working with high temperature type R and S thermocouples over the years is that ya get a stash of Pt wire built up from dead units (well, and some of the Pt-10%Rh too) I could send you maybe a max length of about 12 to 18 inches as a contiguous piece. I keep it around otherwise for occasional crafting and for catalytic fun. n > From: Keith Nagel > Subject: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode > To: "New energy for the new world." > Date: Monday, May 10, 2010, 2:45 PM > I turned the house upside down shook, > and out popped my > platinum wire and the old electrode! It looked a little > long in the tooth, so I rebuilt it and sealed it > with hot glue. Testing produced the same results > as it did the last time I messed with it; poor stability. > This despite glowing reports like so. > > https://info.ngwa.org/GWOL/pdf/991165081.PDF > > My basic design is identical to this. > > http://geoweb1.tamu.edu/Faculty/Herbert/docs/05OwensPtElectrode.pdf > > and I assumed like the author that my problems > had to do with leakage into the body of the > probe and the bimetal junction. The hot glue > does not seem to be providing a good seal after > soaking. > > Any advice about sealing these elecrodes? At over > 100USD per foot of wire, there's a big cost > savings to be had using short segments of active > material. I don't like the idea of using epoxy > to begin with, or hot glue for that matter, due > to contamination issues. > > K. > > _______________________________________________ > NewCandle mailing list > NewCandle at ipdiscover.com > http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com > _______________________________________________ NewCandle mailing list NewCandle at ipdiscover.com http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com From jonesb9 at pacbell.net Mon May 10 16:58:14 2010 From: jonesb9 at pacbell.net (Jones Beene) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:58:14 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode In-Reply-To: References: <386800.85110.qm@web65406.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02b501caf083$82127470$86375d50$@net> Why not ditch the welding, and plate the wire with platinum on the exposed end. -----Original Message----- From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com Thanks! But I've got enough for now, and I need to resolve the issue irrespective of what stock I have on hand. You should make a probe to use for your experiments. That said, if you have any scraps, I'd like to make some platinum blacking solution. I sent an email to one of the big epoxy vendors with tech support, we'll see what they say. K. -----Original Message----- Hi Keith, Well, fancy that... platinum wire you say:) How much ya need? One of the advantages of working with high temperature type R and S thermocouples over the years is that ya get a stash of Pt wire built up from dead units (well, and some of the Pt-10%Rh too) I could send you maybe a max length of about 12 to 18 inches as a contiguous piece. I keep it around otherwise for occasional crafting and for catalytic fun. n > From: Keith Nagel > Subject: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode > To: "New energy for the new world." > Date: Monday, May 10, 2010, 2:45 PM > I turned the house upside down shook, > and out popped my > platinum wire and the old electrode! It looked a little > long in the tooth, so I rebuilt it and sealed it > with hot glue. Testing produced the same results > as it did the last time I messed with it; poor stability. > This despite glowing reports like so. > > https://info.ngwa.org/GWOL/pdf/991165081.PDF > > My basic design is identical to this. > > http://geoweb1.tamu.edu/Faculty/Herbert/docs/05OwensPtElectrode.pdf > > and I assumed like the author that my problems > had to do with leakage into the body of the > probe and the bimetal junction. The hot glue > does not seem to be providing a good seal after > soaking. > > Any advice about sealing these elecrodes? At over > 100USD per foot of wire, there's a big cost > savings to be had using short segments of active > material. I don't like the idea of using epoxy > to begin with, or hot glue for that matter, due > to contamination issues. > > K. > > _______________________________________________ > NewCandle mailing list > NewCandle at ipdiscover.com > http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com > _______________________________________________ NewCandle mailing list NewCandle at ipdiscover.com http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com _______________________________________________ NewCandle mailing list NewCandle at ipdiscover.com http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com From NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com Mon May 10 17:48:33 2010 From: NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com (Keith Nagel) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 14:48:33 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode In-Reply-To: <02b501caf083$82127470$86375d50$@net> Message-ID: That's not a bad idea, but getting a good impermeable platinum plated layer is not so easy a task. It's a lot easier to get a blacked layer, which is of course very permeable. I've had a lot of problems with this sort of thing in the past. Having said that, I will try your idea with a platinum black solution and nickel wire. If it works then we have a nice cheap solution for making these kinds of measurements in all electrolytes. It remains a problem that you need to define the electrode end, so something has to cover the inactive portion of the probe. K. -----Original Message----- From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com [mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Jones Beene Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 1:58 PM To: 'New energy for the new world.' Subject: Re: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode Why not ditch the welding, and plate the wire with platinum on the exposed end. -----Original Message----- From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com Thanks! But I've got enough for now, and I need to resolve the issue irrespective of what stock I have on hand. You should make a probe to use for your experiments. That said, if you have any scraps, I'd like to make some platinum blacking solution. I sent an email to one of the big epoxy vendors with tech support, we'll see what they say. K. -----Original Message----- Hi Keith, Well, fancy that... platinum wire you say:) How much ya need? One of the advantages of working with high temperature type R and S thermocouples over the years is that ya get a stash of Pt wire built up from dead units (well, and some of the Pt-10%Rh too) I could send you maybe a max length of about 12 to 18 inches as a contiguous piece. I keep it around otherwise for occasional crafting and for catalytic fun. n > From: Keith Nagel > Subject: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode > To: "New energy for the new world." > Date: Monday, May 10, 2010, 2:45 PM > I turned the house upside down shook, > and out popped my > platinum wire and the old electrode! It looked a little > long in the tooth, so I rebuilt it and sealed it > with hot glue. Testing produced the same results > as it did the last time I messed with it; poor stability. > This despite glowing reports like so. > > https://info.ngwa.org/GWOL/pdf/991165081.PDF > > My basic design is identical to this. > > http://geoweb1.tamu.edu/Faculty/Herbert/docs/05OwensPtElectrode.pdf > > and I assumed like the author that my problems > had to do with leakage into the body of the > probe and the bimetal junction. The hot glue > does not seem to be providing a good seal after > soaking. > > Any advice about sealing these elecrodes? At over > 100USD per foot of wire, there's a big cost > savings to be had using short segments of active > material. I don't like the idea of using epoxy > to begin with, or hot glue for that matter, due > to contamination issues. > > K. > > _______________________________________________ > NewCandle mailing list > NewCandle at ipdiscover.com > http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com > _______________________________________________ NewCandle mailing list NewCandle at ipdiscover.com http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com _______________________________________________ NewCandle mailing list NewCandle at ipdiscover.com http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com _______________________________________________ NewCandle mailing list NewCandle at ipdiscover.com http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com From jonesb9 at pacbell.net Mon May 10 17:56:54 2010 From: jonesb9 at pacbell.net (Jones Beene) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 14:56:54 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode In-Reply-To: References: <02b501caf083$82127470$86375d50$@net> Message-ID: <02bf01caf08b$b43011d0$1c903570$@net> K > That's not a bad idea, but getting a good impermeable platinum plated layer is not so easy a task. It's a lot easier to get a blacked layer, which is of course very permeable. I've had a lot of problems with this sort of thing in the past. Did you try Johnson & Matthey Platinum 5Q plating solution ? Should be no problem on clean nickel From NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com Mon May 10 18:47:19 2010 From: NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com (Keith Nagel) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 15:47:19 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode In-Reply-To: <02bf01caf08b$b43011d0$1c903570$@net> Message-ID: Jones, No, I have not. What I have tried in the past is to create electrodes with a base metal for structural support and a plated coat of active metal. The active coat was usually nickel, and while it was possible to get good solid coverage porosity was always an issue. The literature for the 5Q solution only claims "low porosity" which may be good enough for corrosion resistance. Have you tried this commercial plating solution? What kind of electrodes are the CF people using? I suppose I should email Ed Storms again and ask for more details. K. -----Original Message----- From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com [mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Jones Beene Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 2:57 PM To: 'New energy for the new world.' Subject: Re: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode K > That's not a bad idea, but getting a good impermeable platinum plated layer is not so easy a task. It's a lot easier to get a blacked layer, which is of course very permeable. I've had a lot of problems with this sort of thing in the past. Did you try Johnson & Matthey Platinum 5Q plating solution ? Should be no problem on clean nickel _______________________________________________ NewCandle mailing list NewCandle at ipdiscover.com http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com From jonesb9 at pacbell.net Mon May 10 20:18:01 2010 From: jonesb9 at pacbell.net (Jones Beene) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 17:18:01 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] Platinum counter-electrode In-Reply-To: References: <02bf01caf08b$b43011d0$1c903570$@net> Message-ID: <02c301caf09f$6aa98000$3ffc8000$@net> I'm playing around with brush and pen plating in order to achieve less (but not absence of) porosity on the surface of a too-porous substrate. Ed would be your best source of advice, as I am a dilettante. Jones, No, I have not. What I have tried in the past is to create electrodes with a base metal for structural support and a plated coat of active metal. The active coat was usually nickel, and while it was possible to get good solid coverage porosity was always an issue. The literature for the 5Q solution only claims "low porosity" which may be good enough for corrosion resistance. Have you tried this commercial plating solution? What kind of electrodes are the CF people using? I suppose I should email Ed Storms again and ask for more details. K. > That's not a bad idea, but getting a good impermeable platinum plated layer is not so easy a task. It's a lot easier to get a blacked layer, which is of course very permeable. I've had a lot of problems with this sort of thing in the past. Did you try Johnson & Matthey Platinum 5Q plating solution ? Should be no problem on clean nickel _______________________________________________ NewCandle mailing list NewCandle at ipdiscover.com http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com _______________________________________________ NewCandle mailing list NewCandle at ipdiscover.com http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com From NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com Tue May 25 12:28:53 2010 From: NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com (Keith Nagel) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 09:28:53 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] Plug the damn hole! Message-ID: Hi All, Last night, I was ruminating over the Gulf Coast oil spill. This thing is shaping up to be the worst spill in US history. BP is, as the kids say, epic failing. So I am thinking about the problems with the previous solutions, all of which seem to revolve around the buildup of methane clathrates inside the pipes used to draw oil away from the well head. It does then strike my perhaps naive mind "Why not take advantage of that fact? Put a blower pipe down as deep into the well as possible, and pump cold sea water into the well. The outgoing methane will react with the injected water, and the resulting ice will slowly accumulate on the pipe wall and close the well. The nozzle of the blower pipe would point back up-stream so the sea water would flow up and across the well pipe inner wall. This to prevent clogging of the blower and promote ice formation on the wall.". It might take a day or two for the ice to close it off, as we have seen with the other tests, but it seems a sure thing. Any thoughts on this? Any of you knuckleheads know some petro people I might kick this around with? Or is there an obvious reason why this scheme won't work? K. From avalonbiker at yahoo.com Tue May 25 12:38:56 2010 From: avalonbiker at yahoo.com (Nick Reiter) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 09:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [NewCandle] Plug the damn hole! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <604527.47369.qm@web65404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Seems damned plausible to me, Keith... The only contacts I've ever had with BP were some BP Solar guys years ago, and they were jerkweeds. It is a horrendous thing though, and the strangely blurry cloud of chaotic bureaucracy and slackjawed non-action are giving rise to some mighty civil discontent and uber-conspiracythink. We could send them our spent Aluminum foil rolls to plug it with. Hows all that going? I am about 2 weeks overdue to report some oddball experiments here, maybe over the long weekend I'll catch up. n > Last night, I was ruminating over the Gulf Coast oil > spill. > This thing is shaping up to be the worst spill in US > history. > BP is, as the kids say, epic failing. > > So I am thinking about the problems with the previous > solutions, > all of which seem to revolve around the buildup of methane > clathrates inside the pipes used to draw oil away from the > well > head. > > It does then strike my perhaps naive mind "Why not take > advantage > of that fact? Put a blower pipe down as deep into the well > as possible, > and pump cold sea water into the well. The outgoing > methane > will react with the injected water, and the resulting ice > will > slowly accumulate on the pipe wall and close the well. The > nozzle of the blower pipe would point back up-stream so the > sea > water would flow up and across the well pipe inner wall. > This > to prevent clogging of the blower and promote ice > formation > on the wall.". > > It might take a day or two for the ice to close it off, as > we have seen with the other tests, but it seems a sure > thing. > > Any thoughts on this? Any of you knuckleheads know some > petro > people I might kick this around with? Or is there an > obvious > reason why this scheme won't work? > > K.? > > _______________________________________________ > NewCandle mailing list > NewCandle at ipdiscover.com > http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com > From NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com Tue May 25 13:39:31 2010 From: NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com (Keith Nagel) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 10:39:31 -0700 Subject: [NewCandle] Plug the damn hole! In-Reply-To: <604527.47369.qm@web65404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Didn't Horace used to work for the oil co's up in Alaska? He's doing construction work now ( or so I gather ) so is not active on the lists. The confusion about what to do is partly being driven by facts on the ground changing day to day. Due to the requirement by the government that BP provide a live feed, we have this fellow following things and reporting. http://monkeyfister.blogspot.com/ Apparently the delay in the last planned event is being caused by the possible breakup of the well casing. Things are looking very bad indeed. K. PS: Corrosion continues. I will also post an update come the weekend, now I am sort of swamped with business issues. -----Original Message----- From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com [mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Nick Reiter Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:39 AM To: New energy for the new world. Subject: Re: [NewCandle] Plug the damn hole! Seems damned plausible to me, Keith... The only contacts I've ever had with BP were some BP Solar guys years ago, and they were jerkweeds. It is a horrendous thing though, and the strangely blurry cloud of chaotic bureaucracy and slackjawed non-action are giving rise to some mighty civil discontent and uber-conspiracythink. We could send them our spent Aluminum foil rolls to plug it with. Hows all that going? I am about 2 weeks overdue to report some oddball experiments here, maybe over the long weekend I'll catch up. n > Last night, I was ruminating over the Gulf Coast oil > spill. > This thing is shaping up to be the worst spill in US > history. > BP is, as the kids say, epic failing. > > So I am thinking about the problems with the previous > solutions, > all of which seem to revolve around the buildup of methane > clathrates inside the pipes used to draw oil away from the > well > head. > > It does then strike my perhaps naive mind "Why not take > advantage > of that fact? Put a blower pipe down as deep into the well > as possible, > and pump cold sea water into the well. The outgoing > methane > will react with the injected water, and the resulting ice > will > slowly accumulate on the pipe wall and close the well. The > nozzle of the blower pipe would point back up-stream so the > sea > water would flow up and across the well pipe inner wall. > This > to prevent clogging of the blower and promote ice > formation > on the wall.". > > It might take a day or two for the ice to close it off, as > we have seen with the other tests, but it seems a sure > thing. > > Any thoughts on this? Any of you knuckleheads know some > petro > people I might kick this around with? Or is there an > obvious > reason why this scheme won't work? > > K.? > > _______________________________________________ > NewCandle mailing list > NewCandle at ipdiscover.com > http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com > _______________________________________________ NewCandle mailing list NewCandle at ipdiscover.com http://ipdiscover.com/mailman/listinfo/newcandle_ipdiscover.com