[NewCandle] Anodizable metals and essential conditionsforglowdischarge?

[Keith Nagel]

Hi Horace,

Thanks for the critique. You mention a number of points and
I'll try to address them all without the unpleasant mechanism
of quoting and replying ( I've come to realize from talking
to others that most folks just flip to the next post when
they see that. I'm trying to wean myself of the habit. )

I'll start with a statement about the glow region. I assert that the
majority of the voltage drop between bulk electrolyte and metal
electrode is concentrated in that glow region. The difference in
potential is what accelerates the ions. In the case of a barrier
layer, most of the potential drop is across that barrier layer.
In the case of the porous layer, the potential drop is spread out
more, much across the base barrier layer, but some also over the span of the
pore.

So what does it mean when glow extends into the electrolyte? In
the case of the barrier layer, what would be happening is that
the crush of ions is so great that the electrolyte conductivity
near the barrier is diminished. The potential drop will now extend farther
into
the electrolyte, and the glow spreads out. We see this same phenomena
in gaseous discharge, it is called the anomalous glow discharge
because the total surface of the electrode is covered with glow
and now has nowhere to go but out into the gas. I expect to see
the same in the porous oxide, but more readily because of the
already diminished conductivity of the tiny electrolyte filled
pore. If it is _possible_ for glow to extend into the electrolyte
( your assertion ), then it is entirely reasonable to assume
that the pore will encourage this process ( with the difference
that it's the electrolyte in the pore that is being extended into,
rather than the bulk electrolyte ). Do you see my point?

I do agree that a simple barrier layer would create the most intense
voltage gradient over a given distance inside the layer, and if that be an
important
parameter for the hypothesized fusion, than a simple barrier layer would
be preferable to a porous layer. In that case, we might _not_
want to push the discharge regime further into the anomalous region.

About the comparison to gaseous discharge and electrolytic discharge,
there is one major difference that I think addresses some of your
concerns. That is this: ordinary gas discharge does not result in
chemical reactions at the anode resulting in an oxide layer. That
is not always the case, and were we to choose an anode material
and gas that did result in oxide buildup ( and more importantly,
oxide degradation when the voltage reverses and the anode becomes
the cathode ), we would see most if
not all of the effects you note in your AC electrolytic discharge
experiments.
But this seems to me to be an aside from the major assertion
on my part that the processes are analogous. I should do more
to lay out this assertion; it's been a guiding principle for
my work in both systems and is worth a more scholarly treatment.
While the parameters have differing magnitudes they still
exist in both systems ( for example,
the cacacity of the electrode w/ respect to gas is much
lower than the capacity w/ respect to electrolyte. But
the parameter of capacity still exists in both systems )

The power supply I pointed to is designed for the sputtering
industry, where the best results are had by maintaining the
discharge in the anomalous glow region just prior to arc discharge.
This is not a stable region, and the supply is designed to
cut out before enough arc discharge happens to ruin the target.
A lower voltage version of this might be quite useful for these
experiments. Ed understood the value of what I was suggesting,
and did say he would try to convince his backers to pony up some cash for
one of these things. This was for the work on gaseous glow discharge
he was describing last year ( I think ).

Ultimately, one is limited by the capacity of the electrode
as to how high the voltage can
be pushed before arc mode is established. The electrode capacity
is the first thing to discharge into the arc column, and if that
capacity is large enough, no power supply current limiting can prevent
arcing. I don't know if the fact that the distributed circuit properties of
the electrode are essential to understanding and controlling arc
discharge is well known in the CF crowd, but it has certainly been
of practical interest to me. It is possible to make large electrodes
that resist breaking into arc mode with this idea in mind.

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com
[mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Horace Heffner
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:25 PM
To: New energy for the new world.
Subject: Re: [NewCandle] Anodizable metals and essential
conditionsforglowdischarge?



On Sep 17, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Keith Nagel wrote:

> Hi Horace,
>
> You write:
>> It still seems to me possible a significant glow occurs within the
>> electrolyte near the surface.
>
> If that is true then in the porous film the glow region
> would tend to extend thoughout the entire pore, rather
> than being concentrated at the surface of the inner barrier layer.

Not true.  The resistance from the conductor to the electrolyte is
vastly greater to the top of the pore than to the bottom.  I would
expect all the action to be at the bottom.  For thick pores, by the
time you get the voltage high enough to activate the top you probably
have arcing through the bottom.

Also, where the glow is depends on how many atoms thick the anode
interphase is, which depends on applied voltage.

I would think pore forming is not good for maximizing voltage for a
sustained glow due to the tendancy to form arcs and thus drain
current and voltage gradient from the active areas.


>
> I expect that the glow phenomena matches that seen in ordinary glow
> discharges on electrodes in air/vacuum. That is to say, there is
> ignition and a glow discharge, then an anomalous glow discharge
> after the entire active surface area is glowing and more voltage
> is applied, then finally a breakdown to a spark. The pores would
> affect the anomalous glow region, and the eventual spark
> breakthough would be channeled by the pores.

This to me makes no sense.  Air discharges don't act like the anode
interphase at all. Where is the diode effect?  Where is the similar
low voltage range nearly linear i vs V conductivity curve?  Where is
the post diode breakdown linear i vs V relationship?  Where is the
mid-range voltage large capacitive effect?  Where is the required
high tunneling rate? There is no polarized molecule chaining that
clears out the interphase of ions, and that is an effect that strikes
me as key to the set-up required to produce cold fusion by this method.


>
> A crude graph of the discharge regime can be found here.
>
> http://www.mksinst.com/docs/R/eni-SYE-TN.aspx

The object of conditioning for the glow is to avoid discharges
altogether.  If you want arcs it is easy to make arcs.  That's
essentially what Mizuno researched.

Arc suppression is not a feasible means to prevent electrospark mode,
at least not for large plates. The arc rate is essentially continuous
so the current would have to be permanently suppressed.


>
> ( as an aside, I suggested this power supply combo to Ed Storms for
> his
> recent work on glow discharge. It's just the thing for working the AGD
> region ).
>
> you also wrote:
>> I had no luck with magnesium when I tried it.  It may well work with
>> the right electrolyte.  I would guess acetic acid would have the best
>> chance of working.
>
> There are commercial processes for anodizing magnesium, so there is
> place to start. This page has a roundup of some of them.
>
> http://www.finishing.com/faqs/magnesium.html
>
> I wasn't sure from a quick search whether the resulting anodized layer
> could be pure magnesium oxide or just a chromate or phosphate.
>
> K.


You still have to experiment to see if the resulting layer can
sustain a glow regime, and what electrolyte can sustain the passified
layer while producing the glow regime.

My guess is if anything can develop and sustain a glow on a magnesium
anode then acetic acid can, but that is just  a guess.  It may also
be irrelevant because an acetic acid barrier, though quick to form,
can not alone provide the high voltage barrier that is of interest.
That said, it still may be of interest to see if acetic acid can
enable a glow regime on Pd or Ni, and especially whether the
anomalous long flashes can be obtained with those.

Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/





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