[NewCandle] Resonance effects on RF electrolysis

[Horace Heffner]

On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Jones Beene wrote:

> -- Nick  
>
>> Now I suppose it could be one of the great miracles
> of physics that 13.56 happens to be the frequ. of
> sodium at some H field ambient, but I reckon its just
> the flavor of the generator he used...
>
> Well it was random luck for Kanzius, as he freely
> admits -- as he owned the medical version of the
> common 13.56 MHz RF heating source, and he was looking
> for a cancer cure- not water-splitting, so that much
> is true, about the luck - but it is not the end of
> story.
>
> -- then - Dr. Roy got involved - who after all was
> already quite famous (he lectured at a conference I
> attended 40 years ago, so he isn't young either) He
> was doing experiments possibly related - and was
> immediately interested when the story broke - and it
> was he who was quick to make the claim about the
> sodium resonance; but then it was never repeated in
> print AFAIK.
>
> Keith and I questioned it last year when it came out,
> and I spend several hours trying to track down an
> authoritative reference but to no avail.
>
> Without this comment by Dr Roy, it would appear that
> there is no connection whatever. My reference table
> for Na gives the NMR resonance at 26.451 at 2.3488 T.
> so there is no way that it could be 13.56 in the earth
> field.
>
> However we are probably NOT talking about the sodium
> atom nor about NMR, but instead it is probably
> refering to resonance of the Na ion bound to Cl -- so
> this leaves open the possibility that they are talking
> about the *ionic bond* of salt being resonant and NOT
> the nucleus. Which makes sense.
>
> Again - not enough info.
>
> Jones

Some old thoughts regarding electrode-less electrolysis follow.  They  
seem to me approximately right even if electrodes are used, because  
the bubbles form a gap between the electrodes and electrolyte.



On Mar 13, 2008, at 12:02 PM, Horace Heffner wrote [on vortex]:

> I think the mechanism is a result of the ionization kinetics of  
> fast moving sodium and chlorine, which is pushed about by the  
> comparatively slow RF field.  This ion motion might have a resonant  
> characteristic, and might better be produced by quadrupole  
> stimulation.  See:
>
> http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/Ostressing.pdf
>
> for some thoughts related to stimulating circular ion motion,  
> specifically nuclear motion.  Ions other than sodium should thus  
> have their own ideal frequencies for dissociating H2O.  I suspect  
> the fact the atomic weights of (23) of Na and Cl (35.45) are close  
> but not equal may also be important.
>
> I suspect H2 and HOOH is produced.  This is also what happens to  
> ordinary water in a microwave I think, but to a much smaller  
> degree.  The flame itself appears to be consuming atmospheric  
> oxygen. If the evolving gas were anywhere near stoichiometric it  
> would explode with a "pop" rather than produce a visible flame that  
> waves around.  The flame front is maintained by a significant  
> difference in oxidants within and without.  It would be most  
> interesting to see what flame, if any, results if the test tube is  
> enclosed in a helium atmosphere.
>
> I think I read somewhere the process does not work, or work as  
> well, with KCl, but that might be due to a required frequency  
> change.  It would of course be of much interest to test various  
> other electrolytes and correlate stimulation frequency to gas  
> production for them.
>
> I would expect the strong drop off in flame support, when the NaCl  
> is less than 1%, may be due to the fact recombination overwhelms  
> the peroxide forming process, probably due to an insufficient H3O+  
> concentration to support H2 formation.  Without a sufficient  
> ionization flux the H3O+ and OH- in the ionization tracks just  
> recombines.
>
>
> Horace Heffner
> http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/


> On Jul 16, 2008, at 2:45 PM, Horace Heffner wrote [on vortex]:
>> Here's a wild thought for you.
>>
>> When NaCl is dissolved in water the Na+ and Cl- ions are separated  
>> by hydration.  They each have a polarized layer of water about  
>> them that separate them, insulates them, and reduces the force  
>> between them, and thus causes the solvation.  The energy for this  
>> separation comes from the heat of the water.
>>
>> Looking at the Kanzius videos, I can see that all the bubbling  
>> action is right at the surface of the test tube.  This suggests to  
>> me the possibility that the electrostatic gradient at the solution  
>> surface might be pulling out fully solvated ions, alternate ions  
>> on alternate phases.  These now gas phase hydrated ions quickly  
>> gain kinetic energy from the EM radiation, typically opposed  
>> direction kinetic energy, and thus collide and strip off their  
>> enveloping water molecules, and thus recombine, giving off the  
>> energy of the reaction in the form of light and heat.  In  
>> addition, some of the water is ionized and recombines as well.   
>> The flame is thus essentially an RF arc, as Bill Beaty suggested  
>> earlier.  However, if this is all correct, the mechanism of the  
>> arc formation is a bit unusual I think.
>>
>> It the above is correct, then it will not be possible to collect  
>> gas from the flame, which I think Bill Beaty already suggested.    
>> It is also true that, if the process is taken to completion, the  
>> weight of the residue may be considerably less than the weight of  
>> the salt at the start, due to loss of the nano-salt to air  
>> entrainment.
>>
>> Also of interest is the fact the water in the test tube should  
>> actually cool.  The energy provided by solvation is fully expended  
>> in the arc heat.  A key ingredient to violating the second law  
>> then is getting the salt back into solution by operating a closed  
>> cell.  Getting practical energy then is just a matter of using a  
>> Sterling engine with the hot end heated by the arc and the cold  
>> end cooled by the brine.
>>
>> A practical design might be to use a flat metallic heat collector  
>> for the Sterling also as a capacitor plate, hovering above the  
>> brine at sufficient distance that the arc forms and the "flame" is  
>> sustained.  The other "plate" for the RF field is then provided by  
>> the brine surface itself, with a conductive plate also provided  
>> within the brine so as to minimize the brine resistance, i.e. at a  
>> shallow depth and of the size of the opposed plate.  The cool  
>> brine can then be pumped to the cooling end of the sterling if  
>> that is necessary.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Horace Heffner
>> http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/

I don't think the chemistry involved is simple.  There are lots of  
thing that can suppress gas formation at the anode.  Consider the  
just prospects of ozone formation, and hydrogen peroxide formation,  
at the anode.

On Mar 20, 2008, at 8:01 AM, Horace Heffner wrote [in response to  
question from Richard]:

> I expect if you mix the ozone with water, an apparently necessary  
> step for water or wastewater treatment,  you are going to get mixed  
> oxidants, especially hydrogen peroxide:
>
>    O3 + H2O -> O2 + HOOH
>
>    O3 + H2O -> O2 + 2 HO
>
>    O3 + HO -> O2 + HOO
>
> and a host of other reactions depending on the water chemical  
> contents.
>
> One option is to simply buy commercial hydrogen peroxide and mix  
> it, but that doesn't meet your criteria for "in situ" generation.
>
> I posted earlier about commercial MIOX treatment equipment, which  
> electrolyses brine, i.e. NaCl mixed with de-ionized (softened with  
> ordinary water softener using NaCl flushed resins) water, and then  
> mixes small amounts of that with the water to be treated (the water  
> to be treated does not have to be de-ionized):
>
>
> On Jun 9, 2007, at 8:49 AM, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>   About the practical side of things, electrolysis of saltwater is  
>> now used commercially and very effectively to make a water  
>> decontaminate called "MIOX" which stands for "mixed oxidents".  See:
>>
>> http://www.miox.com/
>>
>> A google search on "miox" shows lots of other references.  MIOX is  
>> the stuff that accumulates about the cathode when electrolysing  
>> NaCl brine.  MIOX is mostly HOCl, hypochlorous acid, but also lots  
>> of other oxy-chloro compounds and also H2O2, hydrogen peroxide.   
>> The process requires de-ionized water, otherwise the reaction  
>> product mix can vary substantially.  It is far more effective than  
>> chlorine or bleach, and far safer, but requires very careful flow  
>> and/or concentration regulation to keep it that way.  With holding  
>> times of a couple hours or more, even in concentrations with  
>> almost no residual taste,  it is even effective against viruses.   
>> MIOX decontamination units are made in many sizes for use by water  
>> companies.  At local state well operator classes I've seen an  
>> actual demonstration of a MIOX pocket pen run by AA batteries.   
>> The MIOX is produced in the pen by electrolysis and then mixed  
>> with a much larger volume of water to be decontaminated.  The pen  
>> was produced for the military.
>
> The above MIOX stuff has multiple patents, and is fairly expensive,  
> so you would need means of producing oxidants that avoid the  
> patents, and a very reliable means of mixing the water with the  
> oxidants at a fixed ratio (e.g. a fixed ratio flow rate pump, which  
> should be a public domain method) and achieving a sufficient  
> holding time for the oxidants to do their job.  Many oxidants don't  
> last long at concentration, so have to be generated on site, which  
> is in your specification anyway.
>
> One means of beating the patents, while improving energy efficiency  
> at the same time, might be to use electrode-less electrolysis.  I  
> suggest trying a thin layer of brine between dielectric covered  
> capacitor plates as a capacitor in a resonant tank circuit.  Brine  
> could flow between the plates at a slow rate.  I would start out  
> with a very small capacitor initially, and small inductance, so as  
> to get the frequency as high as possible.   Based on recent data  
> regarding the Kanzius process, a frequency of around 13.5 MHz may  
> be optimal or desirable.  This may be effective at generating HOOH,  
> HO, HOO, as well as OH-, and OOH- radicals in addition to sodium  
> hypochlorite, and other similar chlorine based decontaminants and  
> mixed oxidants.  The basic process would be:
>
>    2H2O -> HOOH + H2
>
> so hydrogen gas would evolve and would either need to be vented or  
> maybe used to help drive the process, maybe as auxiliary fuel for a  
> generator or fuel cell.
>
> I do have to wonder if ordinary electrolysis (as opposed to  
> electrode-less electrolysis) is sufficient and can be done without  
> patent violation, but it is expensive because Pt anodes are  
> probably necessary.  Use of a cheap thin high dielectric constant  
> corrosion resistant dielectric, like alumina, as an AC electrode  
> surface might do the job much cheaper  Salt is still pretty cheap too.
>

Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/