[NewCandle] Measuring Half-Cell Charge

[Keith Nagel]

Hey Fred,

I gathered from talking to you last night that you
are thinking that the capacity may not matter?

It also struck me that because the double layer is so thin, that you
could get more reliable results just spraying the interior
of your float with a little water mist, rather than filling
the thing and having all sorts of problems with water
currents inside the float disturbing the measurements.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com
[mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Frederick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 4:56 PM
To: New energy for the new world.
Subject: Re: [NewCandle] Measuring Half-Cell Charge


I think it's the Helmholtz layer where the most significant charge is
going to be found, IE., immersing a metal in water spontaneously
sequester electrons from the
H2O oxygen, then the molecule's two  H atom's positive charges starts
the diffuse
layering.

Thiel and Madey's 1987 paper I pointed out earlier:

http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf

Goes into spontaneous auto-dissociation of water on metals, but I
didn't come across anything closely related to the Electrochemical
Capacitors discussed in
this article:

http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm

They're both a wealth of information, but an experiment might be quicker.

Fred

On 9/11/07, Keith Nagel <NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com> wrote:
> I was sort of hoping that by _not_ adding the salt,
> we might be able to take advantage of that diffuse layer, which
> has far more capacity. Using an acid, as is typical in the
> supercap, the h+ ions are so small and mobile they just get
> right in there at the surface and completely compensate the charge on the electrode.
> Would the balance of energy stored between the two capacities
> shift towards the diffuse layer if we used pure water?
>
> Does Thiel offer any advice on this?
>
> K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com
> [mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Frederick Sparber
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:06 PM
> To: New energy for the new world.
> Subject: Re: [NewCandle] Measuring Half-Cell Charge
>
>
> Yes, the deeper layers add a series capacitance, but the electrophilic
> copper of the water-filled float draws electrons from the oxygen of
> the H2O drawn to it according to Thiel and her references that are
> unanimous on that point.
> I suppose the double layer might be formed between the two hydrogen
> atoms of the adsorbed H2O and any anions added by salt (or base) as
> you suggested.
>
> The voltage should be well below that required to pull any off an OH-
> or Cl- anions
> which suggests that to keep things simple rely on the water molecules stacking
> on their own without the need of a double layer beyond the OH- due to the
> normal autoionization of the water.
>
> Fred
>
> On 9/11/07, Keith Nagel <NewCandleAdmin at ipdiscover.com> wrote:
> > OK, that was sort of my point, the green coating is a carbonate, not an oxide.
> >
> > About the second question, I'm not really sure. For reasons of conductivity
> > some salt is essential, but I realize that this is quite different and
> > we are trying to get a lot of charge...
> >
> > Here's a thought. One thing that always intrigued me about the double
> > layer capacity is that there are two double layers on each interface. The
> > close one that we have been referring to as the double layer, and a
> > diffuse distant one that we have not addressed. The latter has much more
> > capacity than the former, but it is in series with the former, so it
> > doesn't appear in the external measured capacity. But it is there.
> > Not sure about a ref ( I studied all this stuff before the internet
> > and have paper refs for all this ) but I'm sure little google
> > digging will turn up some info.
> >
> > You might look into it, it may alter your thinking about how to
> > do the experiment, and perhaps it relates to your thoughts about
> > the (questionable) wisdom of adding salts to the water.
> >
> > K.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com
> > [mailto:newcandle-bounces at ipdiscover.com]On Behalf Of Frederick Sparber
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 12:44 PM
> > To: New energy for the new world.
> > Subject: [NewCandle] Measuring Half-Cell Charge
> >
> >
> > First of all Keith, Copper Carbonate Hydroxide "Malachite" Cu2CO3(OH)2 is green.
> >
> > Hence the green patina on the Statue of Liberty.
> >
> > Patricia Thiel says there could be 10^15 water molecules per square cm
> > on a metal-water interface. If a major portion of these donate an
> > electron to the high work function "electron hungry" metal the
> > negative charge could go as high as
> > 10^-4 coulombs per cm^2.  Likely much less,however.
> >
> > It seems to me that adding a salt, base or acid would be counterproductive. No?
> >
> > Fred
> >
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